The Better Health Guy – Episode #102: Frequency Specific Microcurrent with Dr. Carolyn McMakin, MA, DC



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personal medical authority hello
everyone and welcome to episode number
102 of the better health guy blog cast
series today’s guest is dr. Carolyn
McMakin and the topic of the show is
frequency specific microcurrent dr.
Carolyn McMakin is the clinical director
of the fibromyalgia and myofascial pain
clinic in Portland Oregon she developed
frequency specific microcurrent in 1995
and began teaching FSM courses in 1997
in addition to maintaining a part time
clinical practice she teaches seminars
on the use of FSM in the United States
Australia Europe and the Middle East she
has lectured at the National Institutes
of Health and at medical conferences in
the US England Ireland and Australia on
the subjects of fibromyalgia and
myofascial pain syndrome fibromyalgia
associated with cervical spine trauma
and on the differential diagnosis and
treatment of pain and pain syndromes and
sports injuries her peer-reviewed
publications include papers on the FSM
induced changes in inflammatory
cytokines and substance P seen with FSM
treatment of fibromyalgia associated
with spine trauma treatment of pain and
the head neck and face and low back
caused by myofascial trigger points
delayed onset muscle soreness shingles
and neuropathic pain she consults with
various NFL and MLB teams and players on
the use of frequency specific
microcurrent in the treatment of sports
injuries her textbook frequency specific
microcurrent in pain management was
published in 2010 her book the resonance
effect was released in March 2017 and
describes how FSM was developed and
provides case reports and frequency
protocols for the visceral uses of
FSM and now my interview with dr.
Carolyn McMakin I have had the
opportunity to meet dr. Carolyn McMakin
several times at conferences over the
past few years everyone that stops by
and works with her at these events says
that she has Healing Hands and I’m
excited today to talk with her about FSM
or frequency specific microcurrent
thanks for being here today dr. McMakin
thank you so thank you so much Scott
it’s good to be with you thanks nice to
see you again – nice to see you as well
what drew you personally to doing the
work that you do today and made you so
passionate about helping other people
through frequency specific microcurrent
well that’s a really good question
I started chiropractic college at the
age of 42 did two years of premed and
I’d always wanted to be a doctor so my
called the medicine I was a
pharmaceutical salesman for 16 years so
my call to medicine and education and
medicine was very long-standing so when
I got to Chiropractic College and then I
graduated and started a practice I think
I was 47 a friend of mine gave me a
two-channel microcurrent device as a
graduation happy start your practice
president and that same friend had a
list of frequencies that he got from an
osteopath who bought a practice in 1946
that came with the machine that was
built in 1922 and that machine came with
a list of frequencies so when george
douglas went down to california and
worked with harry Van Gelder for 3
months in 1983 he brought home this list
of frequencies they put it in a drawer
well well my practice began to focus in
like as soon as it started on chronic
pain patients one day when I was working
on somebody George said here try this
frequency I was like what that’s from
it’s from Harry’s list okay so I had
tried it and I had broken a blood vessel
in this lipid he’s leg I was working on
her with my thumbs to do a trigger point
in the gas drones
and I used the frequency 18 Hertz on
channel a and 62 Hertz on channel B – I
found out later to stop bleeding and her
pain went from a six to a zero the true
point was gone and it’s like well that’s
different and then we started to use the
frequencies on patients with myofascial
pain and I’d been doing myofascial
release and myofascial trigger point
work for four or five years and when you
use when you use your hands you’re used
to really having to dig on muscles it’s
uncomfortable ischemic compression all
of that when I started using the
frequencies the muscles just melted the
trigger points just dissolved into like
something like pudding leaving behind
just normal non tender non trigger point
muscle so we treated an muscle pain
first then nerve pain then we figured
out how to treat the spinal cord and
then the conditions that the frequencies
responded to were broadening and deeper
and wider and more difficult and more
profound and so that’s the way I got to
it but the reason I’ve stayed with it is
how could you not how could you not how
could you
once you feel tissue do what is not
possible to do how do you not do that
right so you just show up at work and
you start out and you see one patient I
had to see three patients an hour I had
three rooms and so it’s been 20 25 years
of what has turned out to be clinical
research because within two years my
practice was more or less exclusively
the 10% of patients that nobody else
could fix so I trigger
smurfling ligamentous laxity disc
injuries facet joint pain this last
weekend we taught a seminar in Denver
and there was a young man there I was 42
he had cerebral palsy from birth they
had done serial casting in his feet when
he was a child at the age of three and
they got the legs to lengthen and the
spasticity to be reduced but then when
he’s 27 15 years previously he got
chickenpox in the nation or something
made the several palsy come back so he
had diplegia which means he’s
toe walking on legs taking very
short steps and with a cane and just
difficult to navigate a little bit
fastest City in his hands well there’s a
frequency that we stumbled across I mean
this frequencies are all on the list
there’s no new numbers there’s new ways
of figuring out how to use them there is
a frequency for increasing descending
inhibition of spasticity in the spinal
cord and to increase secretions from the
cerebellum which is what’s missing in
cerebral palsy so if something happened
to your spinal cord to injure or reduce
the kind of messages that come down from
the brain as they don’t spasm you’d have
cerebral palsy okay this young man we
worked we ran that frequency increased
secretions in the spinal cord to
increase the persons in the syrup
cerebellum and inside of an hour this
best to study and his legs was gone and
his gait was more normal he was still a
little bit up on his toes but his legs
were more relaxed and there was no more
pain and so Sunday night before he left
we worked on him for another hour only
this time we went he had retained what
he started with on Thursday night and we
were able to
progress on that so his hamstrings
relaxed and his so as relaxed and there
are frequencies to treat the
tendinopathy that accompanies a very
tight chronically tight muscle so the
sill has lengthened the legs lengthened
we were able to sort of with manual
therapy get the gastric to lengthen and
run the frequencies for scarring in the
connective tissue to get the gastric to
lengthen got his foot and ninety five a
hundred degrees the end of the story is
that at the end of an hour and twenty
minutes he is walking normally with heel
strike toe off heel strike toe off
shifting weight normally we’ll see if it
lasts wow that’s amazing
but how could you not do that yeah
absolutely so let’s start then with the
basics for those people that are
listening so what is frequency and what
is resonance or as you say in your book
title the resonance effect so when you
deliver a frequency to the body from
this list that you mentioned how do
those frequencies resonate with
something within us to support
improvement of health and balance oh
that’s a great question first a
frequency in electro well a frequency in
music is a sound or a tone frequency in
electronics is the number of pulses per
second so one Hertz is one pulse per
second so in music the a tone is 440
Hertz 440 pulses per second makes you
hear the note a so that’s the basic
concept there’s a lot of physics
involved in that that we’ll skip but
resonance the simplest example that we
use on a daily basis well there’s a
couple of them one is
I have a I have a blue shirt on here
when you’re a child you are taught that
this frequency is called blue it is not
a color it is a frequency that is
reflected off the dye in my shirt it’s
your eye is interpreted by your brain
and when you were six months old your
mom or dad taught you that that color is
that frequency is called blue so we
interact with frequencies all the time
with our ears in our eyes
the most common at this point use of
frequencies that everybody does is your
car remote there’s a frequency that your
car is tuned to and it’s very precise
down to thousandths of a Hertz and when
you click your key fob it opens your
door lock just on your car and then you
click it again and it opens the back
doors even if there is an identical
vehicle from the identical year your key
fob your remote will only resonate with
your car doors you can so that’s the
equivalent I think of how the
frequencies affect our body we’ve we’ve
had data over the years and the only
thing at this point that explains all
the data the only mechanism that
explains all of the data that we have is
that somehow the frequencies are
interacting with cell membrane receptors
in such a way as to change their
configuration or somehow change their
interaction with the internal machinery
of the cell and it changes what the cell
does so there is a frequency that
reduces inflammation in the spinal cord
we have that data from the National
Institutes of Health these peptides
which are very difficult to change in
any medical or research setting called
they change by factors of 10 and 20
times in 90 minutes this is literally
impossible and after 10 years of medical
physicians and researchers and
physicists literally all over the
country on email conversations and a
meetings trying to figure out how we did
this the consensus is that the only
thing that makes sense is that the
frequencies change cells signaling in
such a way that the cell machinery
inside changes and the cell stops
putting out these inflammatory cytokines
and these of inflammatory peptides
because all of the cytokines stop in the
normal range they come down from 300 to
32 down by a factor of 10 times in 90
minutes and they stop in the normal
range when you change these cytokines
with drugs the problem with the
medications is that they take them below
the normal range and then the patient
has problems with infection and cancer
because you need the cytokines for
protection because we lower them so fast
so dramatically and then when the cell
comes back on it never goes back as high
as it was and each time you treat the
cell behaves more normally so we’re used
to pharmaceuticals and nutritional
substances operating on those same
receptors like a key in a lock you can
use your key to open your car-door
and you can use ibuprofen or some
nonsteroidal antiinflammatory
to change the cellular machinery and
reduce inflammation or apparently you
can use a signal
so that’s resonance is when you match
the frequency to the target so the key
fob to the key when a singer sings a
note that
that shatters a lead crystal grass the
reason that trick works is that the
frequency that holds lead atoms together
there is a frequency that binds one lead
atom to another in a led crystal matrix
that trick only works with lead crystal
that is at least I think 70 percent or
80 percent lad I think is 70 percent and
when the singers note is very precise
and sustained the lead atoms start to
vibrate and pretty soon they vibrate
enough that the Ladin lead atoms stop
sticking to each other and the crystal
glass comes apart so those are the
easiest examples no those are fantastic
dr. Klink art who’s been one of my
mentors over the years has been a big
proponent of physics based tools over a
biochemistry or at least using a
combination of the two so we’ve talked a
little about how frequency specific
microcurrent which is based in physics
is shifting the chemistry of the body so
my question to you is in exposure to
let’s say electromagnetic fields from
cell phone towers and so on do those
frequencies have the potential then to
negatively affect our chemistry there’s
research out there that shows that EMF
and certainly like even the magnetic
fields that are around wall current 60
cycle or 60 Hertz current there were
studies in I think it was Norway showing
that those that’s the frequencies that
surround us can increase the stress
response in specific I think Becker
found that what’s interesting to me is
that when we use there’s a frequency and
the FSM protocols in the advanced
courses for neutralizing that EMF
influence on cells I have no idea how
that works but if the EMF that we are
surrounded by is very high frequency and
conclusion or Becker’s suggestion was
that those high frequencies somehow
increase the stress response in the body
and change immune system activation and
to the extent that FSM frequencies have
been shown to quiet the stress response
so we have the ability to change heart
weight variability in 60 seconds can
with the frequency to quiet the
sympathetics change heart weight
variability and autonomic tone in 60
seconds there’s a study in 2013 quiet
the sympathetics run that frequency wait
two minutes do the tests and the
sympathetics have come down
parasympathetics have balance and come
up so there’s always a teeter totter
between sympathetic and parasympathetic
balance so as long as we can do that
then EMF just doesn’t worry me it’s
there are particular patients that are
sensitive to it but I think it’s because
their stress response is preset either
genetically or medically or because of
life experience and there’s the stress
centers in the brain which affect the
immune system in the endocrine system
and all the systems digestive system
stress centers in the brain are more
sensitive to disruption by those high
frequencies and they over respond
because you have people that don’t have
any effect from it at all when you have
people that have very strong symptomatic
changes in response to cellphones if you
look on your phone and you check I will
guarantee you that I’m in a relatively
small town in the state of Washington I
have 1200 cell phone towers within a
one-mile circumference so there’s no
place you can go perhaps short of
Antarctica where you’re not going to be
an MF and not everybody suffers so in my
world it’s more a matter of making the
patient’s system less reactive by
quieting down the
sympathetics by quieting down the stress
centers in the amygdala the hippocampus
the midbrain and bringing up the vagal
tone so that the vagus is not so fragile
and so easily turned off so there’s no
way we’re going to change modern society
and so we are surrounded by EMF so our
response is simply is to navigate that
and help the patient be healthier yeah
I’m gonna have to watch I’ve just
recently started exploring the aura ring
which does measure our mean variability
and so I’m gonna be interested to see M
shifts some of the HRV on that system
and I’ve got my little electromagnetic
thing I have no idea if it works but I
know that I feel better in days when I
wear it so it’s like okay it’s no that’s
great but one of the nice things with
the aura ring is it actually measures
your HRV and your heart rate and whatnot
and you can actually do things then like
FSM and see how your body responds to it
so that’s very exciting tell us a little
about some of the medical conditions or
challenges that people have that you’ve
seen FSM really helps support I know
fibromyalgia is a primary one what are
some of the others that you commonly see
and what are some of the types of issues
that frequency may be able to support in
the body oh good question the most
common things that we treat that like
80% of the patients that come in to see
a standard therapist either a PT and ot
an MD a DC Nature path do I mean we have
the whole gamut of medical profession we
started out with neuropathic pain as
being the number one we actually started
with muscle pain but it turns out that
muscle pain is almost literally never
due to the muscle when we treat the
nerve and the nerves that innervate the
muscles the pain goes down when we treat
the discs and facet joints and reduce
their inflammation the pain goes down
the muscle pain so we think it’s the
muscle but it’s not really so the
musculoskeletal applications archive one
part of the
course we teach then post-operative and
injury application so in both sports and
general medicine if you can get
microcurrent on to an injury within four
hours of the time that it happens
patient doesn’t even bruise we have
frequencies that apparently stop
bleeding because you break your hip and
you get the frequencies on it within
four hours and the patient doesn’t
bruise you have a paper placed patient
doesn’t bruise and recovery happens in
six weeks instead of 12 weeks burns
lacerations wound healing diabetic
wounds diabetic neuropathy
neuropathic pain is probably the most
because most important because there’s
no other treatment for there’s no thing
that works for neuropathic pain or nerve
traction injuries in medicine there is
no thing that works easily or well then
in the more complicated medical
conditions there are protocols that
affect asthma beneficially liver disease
reducing liver enzymes we have data on
that congestive gallbladder is simple
gout as simple Gords or stipple
irritable bowel is simple Crohn’s is
more difficult because very often in
Crohn’s there’s an underlying parasite
or pathogen involved and you have to
take care of that medically so that
brings me to drive by what we don’t tree
which is infection and potentially fatal
conditions we do not treat cancer a
period end of discussion
it’s really clear there’s no wiggle room
in the course when I teach about that
with with Crohn’s because if you use the
frequencies for infection and the
patient’s pain goes down significantly
you have a reason to suspect that it is
indeed a pathogen or parasite so the
patient comes in and their history is
this happened couple of months ago their
history is I’ve crowns I’ve had it for
15 years it flares up about every six
okay what happened what is the only
thing in the digestive system that
flares up every six weeks more or less
like clockwork parasites they lay eggs
the life cycle of the parasite is about
six weeks and so when the Crohn’s
patient says it flares up every six
weeks you have the presumption that it
is parasite the next step is to use the
frequencies that we have for parasites
and confirm that when you use the
frequency for parasites on channel a and
combine it with the frequencies for the
cecum and the appendix which is where
his Crohn’s was focused his pain went
away the swelling went away the
difficulty went away we moved up a
little bit and you treated the next
tight place which is the gall bladder
and that respondent his pain went down
and what we found is if the patient has
an infection or parasite if you run the
frequencies to reduce inflammation it’ll
make it worse because the immune system
is using inflammation to contain the
infection so his physician had brought
him to the class and I said he needs to
start on an antiparasite medication
today they are staying for the course
for four days and by Sunday his pain was
gone the Crohn’s was back into remission
and fsm well did dissolve the scar
tissue and his abdomen the scarring was
gone but that’s how you come by and what
the frequencies can do common-sense
medical education intuition and
knowledge and medication it’s a there
has to be a stable state that the
frequencies can contribute to same thing
with things like constipation that one
other’s ovarian cysts oh my gosh those
are so cool you start out with an
ovarian cyst it really is fun it’s so
neat you you start out with an ovarian
cyst the size of I mean you can feel it
feels like a water balloon in somebody’s
and it’s the size of an orange your
palpating it you run the frequency for
inflammation in the ovary and in real
time inside of about 20 minutes the
ovarian cyst goes down the size of a
kumquat and then it’s done there are
things that we do that even I don’t
believe earlier samos that was another
thing we did this last weekend there’s a
frequency for torn and broken and I
can’t even tell you what it does all I
can tell you is it seems to repair
partial thickness tendon tears Achilles
tendinopathy is rotator cuff partial
tears the pain goes down in about five
minutes and then takes 30 to 60 minutes
to actually repair the tendon and it
might take more than one treatment but
when you apply that principle so we
found out about the killers tendinitis
2009 that’s 10 years ago two years ago I
applied the same principle to an earlier
damos patient this last weekend we had
two earliest and most patients and it is
one frequency combination torn and
broken on channel a and 77 Hertz
connective tissue on channel B and you
hook the patient up from their neck to
their feet punch a button let them fall
asleep on the table come back 60 minutes
later and their joint laxity is just
gone wow I almost have to interrupt that
one because I know it’s such a difficult
challenging condition for people it’s
one that more and more commonly is
coming into my the information that I
come across lots of people that are
dealing with lime and mold and that
whole mix that do have high permeability
and ehlers-danlos and there aren’t a lot
of great tools out there so that’s
that’s phenomenal so in those people
after they do FSM do you see then that
it sounds like the high permeability
reduces yes and it stays gone it’s
interesting it will stay gone any
depending on how many of the EDS genes
they have I think there’s four five four
of them depending on what their genetic
expression is of that condition it’ll
last anyplace usually from two to three
days up to a week and the
the thing that’s interesting is that the
thirst and those patients because their
connective tissue kind of everywhere is
lacks that includes the neck and the gut
and that apparently creates autonomic
disturbance because the places where the
vagus nerve attaches are stretchy they
don’t sit still you eat a meal you stand
up your gut moves like gravity pulls on
the connective tissue connective tissue
stretches well the vagus nerve is stuck
to it and so the vagus nerve gets stuck
to it the vagus nerve gets turned down
not off but down most of the earlier
stand those patients have gastroparesis
or some form of SIBO reflux because the
sphincters relax
well the strangers are relaxed not only
because of the connective tissue in the
sphincter the cases we’ve done in the
last five years about three years I’ve
suggested that the other problem is that
the vagus is turned down or off you
check in our lives Danlos patients all
of them at elevated heart rate their
heart rates are between 80 and 95 you
treat the connective tissue and then you
quiet the stress centers in the brain
you turn back on the vagus and her range
of motion and her fingers goes to normal
and her heart rate of 67 we did that on
three different patients this weekend
it’s like and these days it’s like it is
now becoming standardized as care for
these patients and then you can go after
what else is going on with the vagus is
turned down one of the vagus is one of
the roles of the vagus is to quiet the
immune system right that’s its role it
quiets immune system but by affecting
the spleen and the and the macrophages
and so what the vagus is not doing its
job to quiet the immune system
the immune system becomes hyper vigilant
hyper active and it’s the immune system
hyperactivity that creates the
inflammation the chemical sensitivities
the NSL issues the mast cell has issues
it’s like people talk about this mast
cell activation syndrome because they
don’t have any way to fix it Jake
described in great detail how
complicated it is they haven’t it’s it’s
fine that they can’t fix it it’s like no
wait all you have to do is turn it turn
on the vagus quite a dentist stress
centers turn on the vagus control the
immune system now that’s a challenge if
they still have active infection but if
you can balance the immune system by
quieting down the stress centers turning
on the vagus get the heart rate back to
get rid of the pots and the vagus
controls the sphincters so that takes
care of the SIBO she was like I hesitate
to say it because it sounds it really
sounds stupid but if you can act if you
can normalize the function of the
sphincters between the large and small
balls the bowel SIBO as a matter of two
weeks about two years not twelve months
it’s like two weeks get the sphincters
to close deal with the dysbiosis reflex
kind of the same thing and gastroparesis
they all go into one bucket that is now
being treated by quieting the stress
centers in the brain turning back on the
vagus you don’t have to do anything dis
fingers because the vagus does that
that’s his job in a turning back on the
vagus then also helps with the migrating
motor complex issues that people have in
CeeLo as well correct right yeah because
you normalize you you normalize stomach
acid the pancreatic enzyme function and
gut motility so gastroparesis goes away
and the the relative SIBO goes away you
still have to do stable State you still
have to kill the pathogens I am all
about chemical warfare when it comes to
there is a reason God in Benin
metronidazole there is a reason God
Matan if you’ve got diverticulitis you
take metronidazole and augmentin and let
us treat you with FS eminent yes but did
you do both so talk to us a little bit
about the experience of an FSM session
how is the device applied how does the
power or intensity of the frequency
that’s delivered compared to let’s say a
TENS unit that people might be familiar
the microcurrent devices are categorized
officially as if they are tens devices
by the FDA
that is for regulatory convenience and
to keep just regulatory convenience
microcurrent devices are battery
operated and so for the FDA that means
there are tens the current is a thousand
times less than tens a thousand times it
is the same kind of current that your
body puts out on his own so we can use
adhesive electrodes I don’t prefer those
because they tend to prickle on the skin
when the even when 100 microamps goes
gross so as you’ve seen at the meetings
we use wet towels they are that requires
a towel warmer and you attach the leads
to the wet towel like if I’m treating
somebody’s spinal cord or vagus wrap the
towel around the neck because that way
you get at the whole spinal cord and
both sides of the vagus and if you’re
going to treat let’s say fibromyalgia
from the spine trauma the other warm wet
towel goes around the feet then you
cover the patient up with a soft fuzzy
blanket and then the frequencies are
applied you can’t feel the current so
the current is usually between a hundred
one hundred and fifty my cramps for
somebody that works out a lot there’s a
lot of muscle mass we use two hundred
micro amps for professional and elite
athletes we use three or four hundred
and that’s mostly because it makes the
treatment go faster if on children if
we’re treating directly on their bodies
we have it’s 60 micro amps use less
current for a smaller patient use less
current for a more frail patient so a 70
eight year old that just got out of the
hospital for a hip replacement or
pneumonia or whatever that tends to be
between 60 and 80 microbes so lower
current use the adhesive pads and then
the practitioner well have a list of
frequencies there are suggested
protocols when they leave the course
they have this book but it’s really
interesting the the treatment has to
match the individual patient so you
could have shoulder pain because you
played tennis and you have a partial
thickness rotator cuff tear and that is
treated with a different protocol so
that you treat the partial thickness
tear and then you treat the muscle and
you repair the tendon and then that
makes the muscle pain go away but if you
have shoulder pain because you are
picking pairs in your uncle Ralph’s
orchard and uncle Ralph sprays
pesticides and you don’t metabolize
pesticides well the way to get rid of
the trigger points in your shoulder
would be completely different than the
tendinopathy patient you’d have to treat
to quiet the nerve and you’d have to
treat to remove the toxins from the
fascia and then all the shoulder pain
goes away and that’s better so that the
frequency protocols have to match what
the patient has
sowhat’s leg pain you can have leg pain
from sciatica which we think of as being
associated with the disc you can have
leg pain from the facet joints the
posterior joints in the spine you can
have leg pain from trigger points in the
muscles in your glutes and you can have
leg pain from the individual joints the
practitioner has to use the protocol
that is specific for what’s causing your
difficulty so that that’s the part
that’s variable fully 50% of the fsm
workshop or training course is
diagnosis so the same thing like with
the Crohn’s patient if I had not figured
out by listening to the history that his
problem had to do with parasites if I
had just treated him for inflammation he
would have gotten worse right so the
frequencies have to be correct the setup
is going to be so that the current runs
through the area of interest so if
you’re treating the liver you put one
contact on the back one contact on the
abdomen the current runs to the liver
ovaries shoulder is neck to hand go back
to leg I cut the tip towel will go under
the low back and then down on the foot
diabetic neuropathy is goes from the
knee to the foot so talking more about
this low level of current and its effect
on the body’s ability to produce ATP or
cellular energy energy currency of the
body what the mitochondria of our cells
are producing is it too much of a leap
to say that if ATP increases from fsm
that everything in the body then is
upregulated in the body can better do
all of the things that it inherently
knows how to do I love the way you put
that yes there’s studies going 1982 was
the first one and it showed that just
plain microcurrent just plain DC current
increased ATP production by five times
in Raskin that study was replicated in
2001 and then done in vivo in human
lymphocytes in 2002 and consistently it
increases ATP production by five times
five hundred percent so you would think
that if you give the BA and that current
is going to flow through the
interstitial water er that is you
because you’re a conductor you’re a
semiconductor that it will allow the
body to do everything it does better and
specifically when we target the tissue
with the frequencies it’s as if the
current gives let’s say the liver five
times the energy that it had five
minutes ago
and it allows the liver to make the
changes that the frequencies tell it to
make yeah I mean this is really
phenomenal so you see a lot of times a
lot of my listeners Lyme disease is a
fairly common issue that they’re dealing
with and so you know we’re familiar with
the antithesis and the anti that and the
way that I really see FSM is that it’s
more about fortifying uplifting
increasing vitality raising our
vibration so that we can execute on that
inherent design so is that a reasonable
way to kind of think of it that we’re
really kind of raising our vibration
through the use of frequency specific
microcurrent I’d say it’s a good start I
mean it’s it’s yes that happens but the
affects of the frequencies are so really
incomprehensible Scott it’s like in
addition to just making you feel better
it we really do have solid reproducible
data that shows that we turn off off
inflammation reduce locks and Cox
inflammation by 62 percent in four
minutes and every animal tested and that
lasts for any play it historically
clinically at last anyplace from two to
four hours during the time that the
inflammation is reduced that’s where
your model comes in and that says that
while we can turn the inflammation down
your whole body can begin to function
better and recover when we turn off
nerve pain it’s off you go from a 7 to a
1 out of 10 pain in 30 minutes
Wow it’s and and that’s for 20 years so
when that happens all of the stress
centers in your brain get to recover
your digestion starts to recover that
part’s good and then lately in the last
two years when you can reboot the vagus
quiet the stress centers in vain reboot
the vagus the the clinical improvement
in the patient’s condition
is it’s breathtaking I I have trouble
getting my head around it sometimes I
guess it it’s been such a I stayed away
from treating the vagus for 20 years the
first patient I treated I was working in
a cardiologists office after I was on
functional medicine update in 99 or 2000
this cardiologist flew me down to his
office in Beverly Hills and I spent the
day working on cardiac patients this
patient came in a ventricular
tachycardias heart rate was 140 and they
had his pulse on a microphone which made
me really nervous I’m a chiropractor
I don’t treat patients in ventricular
tachycardia so I thought well the vagus
lowers heart rate so I ran the frequency
to increase secretions in the vagus this
guy’s heart rate went from 140 to about
70 in 20 seconds it Wow it scared the
heck out of me now it wouldn’t hold
because we I didn’t have sense enough at
the time to address to use a second
machine to address the irritability in
the heart that was causing the problem
in the first place so they went and
converted him but it’s kept me away from
the vagus for 18 years and then two
years ago one of our practitioners had
been using it she reported a result
since light
mm-hm and now it has become a standard
it changes everything so yes it we do
help the body do what it does normally
better but very specifically we have the
ability to specifically change things
processes in the body that are
problematic so just for people listening
you’ve mentioned channel a channel B
that there’s two frequencies and so I
think that’s one of the unique things
about frequency specific microcurrent so
is it reasonable to see this as kind of
channel a as the what channel B is the
where so if we’re removing is in the
what in the small intestine the where
that’s why there’s two frequencies what
you’re wanting to address and then the
thing that you’re wanting to address or
the target of that specific frequency
exactly and then experience has shown
both of those have to be correct so
somehow it is the combination of the two
frequencies that has an effect in in
physics it says that you have in any
field where there are two frequencies
crossing or mixing you have frequency
from a the frequency from B the sum and
the difference historically and this was
just it’s just a matter of experience so
you you treat a frequency on channelized
the first place was I was treating
inflammation in the tendon on a football
player and at the oakland raiders and
keith pine was treating that patient we
pleaded inflammation then tendon he said
I’ve been doing it for an hour and it’s
still sore
well the tendon was fine it was the
bursa you go off the tendon and there’s
this big tender Bursa and it’s like well
the frequency for the bursa is 195 Hertz
and the tendon is 191 that’s only four
Hertz difference same channel a reduce
inflammation we changed to the bursa 195
the bursa went all smushy in ten minutes
then you could feel where the tendon was
attached to the bone that’s the
periosteum we changed to that frequency
and after one hour that didn’t relieve
the pain when you got the correct
frequency for the where then the
condition corrected there’s so much talk
these days about genetics and I really
like to look at things more as
epigenetics and how we can influence our
gene expression so could we say that
frequency specific microcurrent is
essentially an epigenetic modifier of
gene expression in the body that is
exactly if I could put that in print and
tape that is exactly what the data
suggests that we’re doing because it is
the only thing it’s the only model that
accounts for all of the data so what we
do in new injuries
historically clinically you have to
apply the protocols to stop bleeding and
repair trauma within four to six hours
of the time of the injury the only thing
that’s different and then if you miss
that six-hour window then you can
accelerate the healing reduce the pain
but it’s not magical that first four to
six hours the only thing that’s
different are the genes there are genes
that turn on immediately at the time of
an injury and they are off at six hours
and they are turned on by bleeding in
trauma tissue fragments if we turn off
the bleeding reduce the inflammation
repair the trauma in that first four to
six hours the healing is accelerated by
double or triple it’s why we’re so
effective in sports medicine but the
only thing that explains that is just
what you’re saying epigenetic
transformation we affect cells signaling
that accept that changes cellular
genetic expression and that changes
epigenetic function and one of our
practitioners has come up with a model
that is now quite testable and her model
is that what we’re actually affecting is
micro RNA is not the messenger RNA so
much as the micro RNA which establishes
the protein configuration that is
created by the messenger RNA but you’re
the the phrase epigenetic expression is
indeed what we’re changing that’s what
we think I know one of the protocols
that people talk about a lot with FSM is
the concussion protocol so we know that
when people have a traumatic brain
injury that that can play a significant
role in chronic illnesses how my f sm
helped to mitigate these traumatic brain
injuries or concussions as a contributor
to a chronic illness we started using
the concussion protocol 25 years ago
it is a treating concussion in the
medulla which are the what the
frequencies are for and then addressing
the pituitary we’ve been doing that for
25 years and it is very effective in
people with traumatic brain injuries but
if you think about the relationship
between the medulla
the Vegas and the immune system
according to this old osteopath that
gave us the concussion protocol that is
the loop that actually that is the
connection that actually predisposes
somebody with not only a head injury but
even certain types of day-to-day stress
so if you think of a if you hit your
head that’s clear that you have you have
shearing in an injury in the medulla and
that can inflame the tracks that
regulate the autonomic nervous system
and the vagus and all of that so head
injuries are obvious what is less
obvious is the feedback loop or the way
that we experience what this osteopath
would call concussion the way that we
experience trauma that is not from
direct head injuries if you would in
your mind um sort of play back the video
of when you came into an intersection on
a green light and a large truck came
speeding in front of you running his red
light and missed you by six inches so
that stress response is literally
peripheral to central the sympathetic
stress response just is this wave of
neurotransmitter input through the vagus
up to the medulla that up regulates the
stress centers in the brain that’s what
causes the copper pennies taste in your
the hyperventilation the sweaty palms
all of that fear reaction is central how
did it get there
it’s the vagus
so the concussion can come from even
day-to-day stresses and the concussion
protocol the data that we have on it is
lots of thousands millions of anecdotes
but the data that we have from NIH and
the concussion protocol shows that it
raises serotonin levels so the last 30
minutes of our NIH data was the
concussion protocol Japan came down
cytokines came down serotonin actually
came down while we were running the
frequency to quiet the train serotonin
came down then when we switched the
concussion protocol we published six of
the cases but I have data on 13 in all
13 patients the pain was zero serotonin
stop dropping turn around went back up
what a serotonin do makes you feel
better makes you more flexible it’s like
okay good I’m not going to die that’s a
good thing so that’s what the concussion
protocol does and it is once you run it
you’re it is subtle but profound so in
traumatic brain injuries we treat not
just the concussion protocol but the
cortex the sensory and motor cortex and
stroke patients and head injury patients
there’s one frequency combination that
takes down the body pain from the
lambing pain syndrome from strokes in
the thalamus doesn’t work for midbrain
strokes or a cord upper medulla injuries
but the thalamus itself in 20 years we
haven’t found anybody it doesn’t work on
we haven’t gotten anybody to publish
anything on that yet because in it’s so
hard to believe that it’s going to work
that every time you use it you kind of
forget that it would be publishable but
it’s so that when we work on the brain
it’s very specific our environment over
the years has become increasingly toxic
which adds to the complication of many
different types of chronic illnesses is
there a role for FSM in terms of
assisting the body in its detoxification
capacity and
then potentially is there a place for it
in those that are toxic from exposure to
water damaged buildings that is
complicated but doable there are
frequencies for toxicity there are
frequencies for mold that appear to help
the immune system cope with it better so
there are frequencies for toxicity that
you can run on the liver and the brain
so these are environmental toxins
organic chemicals pesticides VOCs those
kind of environmental toxins
those are fairly straightforward lots of
mileage with those with mold those
toxins are very specific we have two
frequencies for mold mold toxins and the
experience we have is probably in double
almost triple digits at this point you
have to correct the environmental
exposure so I have I have gone through
that I lived in this this house that I
have now I bought it because it was
completely mol free no water excursions
ever and in the and in a five four five
year period I had three different water
leaks that resulted in stachybotrys of
primarily so my own symptoms were
gastroparesis reflux pancreatitis
pancreatic failure all from stachybotrys
so I could use frequencies to reduce my
stress response I got my gag reflex back
in a matter of two weeks instead of a
year we still had to do the binders
chlorella cake clay charcoal
cholestyramine and I was on antifungals
the Ettrick on us all and fluconazole
and and plus nasal spray because my
sinuses were colonized so it’s an
adjunct that helps the patients survive
while you do the remediation and while
you take care of the infection that’s in
the body mold is complicated and I’m
finally after a kitchen remodel the
house is mold free and it’s no longer
quite the struggle but the FSM is
definitely helpful let’s talk a little
bit about shingles that is a condition
that people suffer with tremendous pain
or even post herpetic neuralgia and can
go on for months and months my
understanding is that FSM can can really
almost make shingles a non-issue so I’d
like to hear a little bit about shingles
ah that’s my favorite
because the thing with shingles is it
shows up just as paint in the prodrome
the shingles prodrome is any place from
two or three days up to a month
depending on the patient and in that
prodrome you just have wicked pain that
follows a nerve root but most people
don’t think of shingles they think of oh
I lifted something and I have a rib out
or my gall bladder is acting up or I’ve
got an abdominal tumor whatever
so the frequencies for shingles we had
one that we started out with in 1998 and
that frequency you could run in the
prodrome it would take the pain away in
about ten minutes you had to run it for
we used to say an hour day for three
days in a row each time the pain would
come down and then after the third day
it just never came back the blisters
never break out if there are blisters
that have already occurred and the
brochures are less than two weeks so if
you’re in the first acute-phase week one
of the lesions the frequency will take
out the pain the lesions dry up we do
two to three to four hour treatment the
lesions dry up in 24 to 48 hours they’re
gone and you don’t ever have poster pad
manraja starting in probably around 2009
and 10 that frequency which had worked
for what 12 years then all of a sudden
wasn’t getting it we were getting
reports that is not looking so it first
took us three months to verify that the
machines were good and it wasn’t the
device is not running an accurate
frequency it was that the virus had
mutated possibly due to the vaccines but
that’s another conversation so one of
our one of my colleagues has a way of
dowsing for frequencies and so he came
up with a modification so instead of
2:30 and 4:30 it was 236 and 435 and
that those two
work together for about another three or
four years and then starting two years
ago we ended up with the third frequency
but still the effect is the same if you
can get the frequency on during the
prodrome takes the pain away within 20
to 30 minutes so the way it works these
days is use each of the frequencies for
30 minutes apiece 20 minutes apiece so
all three frequencies run 20 minutes
apiece in an hour and then you run it
for two hours three days in a row the
pain goes away doesn’t come back
prevents the lesions from breaking out
or if the lesions are broken out it
dries them up in 24 to 48 hours post
herpetic neuralgia is a different
problem so acute shingles is like
literally easy kidney stone pain
different frequency but literally easy
post herpetic neuralgia is a problem
because the virus has destroyed the
nerve so you have to repair the nerve
and because the nerve has been
disconnected from the spinal cord in the
brain because the little virus bites in
it if you want to look at it that way
you have to treat the whole connection
so you have to treat the spinal cord the
brain pain centers the spinal cord and
the nerve all at one time it is not a
slam-dunk we get about I’d say 70
percent recovery close to 80 maybe
cranial nerves not so much kind of
continuing on for a second on the viral
conversation dr. cling hard and others
in the last couple years talked about
this endogenous retroviral activation
and how that kind of plays a
foundational role in many different
types of chronic illnesses do we know if
there’s a place for FSM in terms of
silencing those and dodging distretto
viruses well no we have a frequency for
malignant virus that we use one that we
know there has been something
viral pericarditis or viral encephalitis
that kind of thing but I would suggest
that everybody’s got retroviruses and a
retrovirus by its very definition has
inserted itself into the cells so I I
have I don’t even know how to put it but
my conception of well everything that’s
really a problem that we can’t fix is
because of retroviruses that we can fix
so is it really the retroviruses or is
it that this the presence of whatever
has turned on the stress centers turned
off the Vegas and we are confronted with
a patient whose immune system doesn’t
make sense whose inflammation doesn’t
make sense
whose pain response and stress response
doesn’t make sense and if you can say oh
there’s retroviruses and we can’t fix
retroviruses then okay then you’re kind
of off the hook right you have an
explanation for why the patient’s
chronically ill and you have no way to
fix it we can strengthen this and that
and yes it’s going to take a long time
my response to that is if it was a
universal problem we wouldn’t have the
success we have in treating SIBO
gastroparesis chronic fatigue and
chronic pain right so if that was a
totally limiting factor one of these
chronically ill patients that came in
would be impossible to treat because
of the retroviral activity but I’ve got
retroviruses everybody does
I’ve been vaccinated when I was you know
six or eight in 1950 something and we
already know that those vaccines had
retroviruses in them and so there’s
there’s just a if the retroviruses is
inserted itself into the cellular DNA
and if we appeared to be able to affect
cellular epigenetic expression the way
we seem to then the retroviruses don’t
seem to get in our way
one of the things that I’d like to do in
the podcast is kind of connect people
with more challenging conditions to
things they can explore and go find an
FSM practitioner for example
interstitial cystitis is another issue
that is really challenging for people
and often times they do lots of
different things and don’t always make a
lot of progress so is there a role for
FSM with interstitial cystitis good
question one of our practitioners in
2000 I’d say four or five was a nurse
practitioner who worked with her husband
who was a urologist Maggie she developed
a protocol because they saw so many
interstitial cystitis patients
developed a protocol for interstitial
cystitis so in our world we think of
interstitial cystitis kind of like our
SD of the bladder so we it takes two
machines one of them treats the spinal
cord to reduce central sensitization and
sympathetic flow the other one treats
from the front to the back to treat
actually the bladder and the nerves to
the bladder and when you look at the
vagus the vagus has pain fibers so
abdominal pain bladder pain that’s
vaguely mediated so you treat the spinal
cord you treat the nerve to the bladder
you treat the bladder itself for
inflammation and then anytime we use the
frequencies for scar tissue you have to
move the tissue through the range so as
you reduce inflammation and the bladder
reduce the pain response the
nerves the spinal cord in the brain and
the vagus reduced that as the bladder
fills just before you let the patient
use the restroom and empty yet you run
the frequencies for scarring scarring
and fibrosis and hardening the bladder
while it feels so that stretches it
universally every time when the patient
empties the bladder they come back and
say I held a lot more than I used to and
the pain is down doesn’t hurt as much so
we treat them again now the challenge
that I’ve had is that at least in my
practice because I don’t see those
patients regularly and since those
patients don’t expect to get better they
think it’s a fluke so getting an
interstitial cystitis patient to come
back in twice a week for four to six
weeks to actually put it into remission
I’ve never successfully done that we
teach in the interstitial cystitis
protocol in every course seminar it’s
just part of the standard because it is
such a difficult condition and the
treatment so far knock on wood
never found anybody it doesn’t work on I
don’t know that we have a course
completion I know Maggie had good
success with it there is a lot of
discussion these days on the limbic
system as well as kind of the alarm
center that maybe is responding in a way
that is you termed earlier hyperactive
or over reactive to a stressor like you
had mold in your house your limbic
system responds a certain way your house
is now mold-free but your limbic system
or alarm Center responds to a very small
amount of mold in the same way that it
respond to a significant amount of mold
and so dr. Neal nathan talks about a
number of things in his book in terms of
rebooting the limbic system so once
you’ve addressed that initial trigger
how do we then get the body to stop over
responding so can we use frequency
specific microcurrent as a rebooting
strategy for the limbic system that has
like the most that is that has been the
most significant discovery in the last
two years because what I’ve been talking
about with the vagus the first step in
that there is no point in turning the
vagus on until you reboot the limbic
system so the non FSM ways of rebooting
the limbic system take months and months
and with FSM there’s one frequency that
covers the whole midbrain the thalamus
the hypothalamus the amygdala and the
hippocampus so it covers the whole
limbic system and there is a frequency
to quiet the activity of the midbrain so
you run that and people that are under a
lot of stress just zone out then you
quiet the sympathetics then you quiet
the medulla which is the reticular
activating system which coordinates with
the stress Center so you have to deal
with that whole track and the reason
that the limbic system is a problem is
that the limbic system the midbrain and
the stress centers turn off the Vegas so
after we quiet the midbrain we complete
the chain turn the vagus back on and
that seems to make the limbic system
treatment more lasting because there’s a
feedback loop between the vagus and the
limbic system so when the stress centres
go to hyper react again the vagus sends
a signal up stream that says I don’t
know what your problem is but we’re
doing fine down here chill out dude
so it makes it last longer and it has to
be repeated I had to use it a lot like
when I had the mold exposure you can’t
turn the vagus back on in that case
because you still have an infection the
in the vagus is turned down during
infection and trauma because the vagus
suppresses the immune system right once
the infection is gone then the problem
is getting the stress centers to turn
off and the vagus to turn back on it so
you have to use it wisely because it is
literally quite powerful and very
immediate it’s real time
now and then you then you do the other
strategies that are in Neil’s book about
how to reboot the limbic system
behaviorally to support that you just I
I run quiet the limbic system the
concussion protocol and restore vagal
function three times a week on myself my
life was pretty stressful and it just
keeps it all on even keel
we need that these days perhaps I should
put it in the water so what happens I’m
sure people are wondering with the
complexity of trying to match the
frequency to the specific person to
their condition in the right order and
so on what if you get the frequencies
wrong with FSM is there any downside to
that or does it just not work usually if
the frequency is not correct it doesn’t
do anything there are specific
frequencies under specific circumstances
that you do not run period ever there
and that is covered multiple times all
through the core seminar for example in
the nervous system if you have somebody
that has had sensory and motor cortex
stroke and you run the frequencies to
increase secretions in the sensory and
motor cortex you can get rid of
spasticity from the stroke yeah however
there is a frequency to increase
secretions in the midbrain the limbic
system I made a guy in a man in a coma
cry when I the first I first time I’d
ever used it we were yet a hypoxic brain
injury we were trying to turn back on
every part of his brain I got to the
frequency to increase secretions in the
midbrain or the limbic system is and his
eyes filled up with tears his chin
quivered and tears rolled down his
cheeks it’s like okay we don’t ever use
so there’s warnings everywhere that you
just don’t use that it’s out of all of
our programs so if somebody’s stumbled
across that and tried it that could be a
thing increasing secretions let’s say in
the spinal cord when somebody is
seeing this level six or seven pain well
one of the secretions in the spinal cord
that you’re going to increase the
substance P so the pain could go up most
of those are temporary I the man and the
coma I could reversed the effect by
running a frequency to quiet the limbic
system back down so that was it’s a very
temporary response but those are every
every difficulty we’ve ever had running
of frequency is covered in the course
M&R it’s repeated and everything they
get kidneys for example well there’s a
frequency for increasing secretions and
the kidney is an endocrine organ and the
students were warned from day one you do
not increase secretions in the kidney
it’s too important they affect things
like blood formation blood pressure
mineral balance and you don’t it there’s
five four different secretions from the
kidney and you don’t want to increase
all four of them you don’t get to pick
which one’s going to increase so we just
don’t do that that’s those kinds of
responses are very particular but the
rest of it if your leg pain is from
facets and somebody treats the nerve
it’s not going to hurt you right so if
they just simply treat the wrong thing
it’s not a problem so for people
listening and potentially excited about
what they’re hearing in the podcast and
wanting to explore FSM how do they find
somebody and then is there an option
where they can then work with their
practitioner and continue to do the
sessions at home while they’re in
collaboration with their practitioner
yes so we have a website frequency
specific calm and the practitioners that
are listed on that website have
subscribed to the website we had to make
it subscription to make the list more
accurate so we have many more
practitioners than are listed but the
ones that are there are actively doing
FSM and so the practitioner works with
you you’re having success and you need
independence and maintenance so like the
earlier Danlos patients that’s temporary
they have to be treated every four to
five days and there’s no reason they
have to come see me to do it because
it’s so easy there’s no technical so we
there are the device company which is
separate than the seminar company has
home devices that the practitioner can
program for things like ehlers-danlos or
nerve pain or fibromyalgia from spine
trauma or concussion or sleep or
shingles or new injury I programmed a
unit yesterday for one of my patients
who’s having knee surgery today so she
will put that unit on right after her
surgery and she will not bruise and her
recovery time will be cut in half so
those are important they there’s money
involved in insurance doesn’t usually
cover them because the devices are
around two thousand three thousand
twenty five hundred dollars and as far
as the insurance company’s concerned you
can get a TENS unit four hundred bucks
and it’s right and it’s classified as if
it’s a chance but most patients see the
economic benefit in it and just what
it’s going to save you in co-pays and
office visits and medication and you get
your life back so it’s usually something
that patients are willing to do and
these are the custom care correct that’s
the home unit right yeah I think this
this whole conversation on FSM it’s so
exciting so many things that potentially
can be done with this kind of technology
and I personally have just started
exploring it recently with a local
practitioner how after having talked
with you at one of the conferences
earlier this year and I wish it was
something I had explored more many many
years ago the one opportunity I had to
do it the practitioner was several hours
away and and just didn’t get a chance to
pursue it but I’ve heard so many of the
people that I really respect dr. Neil
Nathan dr. Dave oh the list goes on and
on that have really found FSM to be a
phenomenal tool and so if people
listening are interested I definitely
encourage them to go to the website and
look and see who’s near you and reach
out and try to learn more about how you
potentially can incorporate that into
your routine and we also have there’s a
YouTube channel for frequency specific
things like complex regional pain
syndrome RSD there are webinars for
practitioners but there are webinars for
the public that go into a little more
depth in into the mechanisms and case
reports and things were good at treating
so that’s also available then there’s
the resonance effect the book that has
been a great resource to get patients to
understand and get a feel for what FSM
yeah and it’s fantastic – the book I in
preparing for this podcast and having
already been exposed to FSM I learned a
lot from it so if people feel drawn to
learn more about it the book is the
resonance effect I’ll put the link in
the show notes as well so that you can
find there’s a website the resonance
effect calm and really goes into a lot
more detail on the conversation that
we’re having today so the last question
that I have is the same for every guest
and that is what are some of the key
things that you do on a daily basis in
support of your own health oh well I
take supplements gluten free diet the
the things that you do and integrative
or functional medicine with diet
nutrition to support the stable state he
drink 1 to 2 quarts of filtered water a
day but honestly given my personal
health history and the mold exposure and
the jaw infection and though whatever I
if I had not had FSM to help modulate my
immune system I’d adjust assist of my
nervous system the endocrine system I
don’t think I’d be here cardiac system
so that’s what I do
is FSM and sensible supplements and when
I need an expert like Neil Nathan or
Roger Billy Coe or Michael Gray or
whoever you seek david buznik you seek
that help out you follow their advice
Shirley Hartman and throwing out some
really good names there they’re just
like I they I’ve been so lucky to meet
these really talented passionate
educated intelligent people and the fact
that they see the value with FSM and
it’s just obvious to them that’s quite
an honor and it’s a testimony to what
FSM is
is has to offer as an adjunct in
anybody’s healthcare it’s almost like I
wouldn’t say nothing scares you but it
takes the some of the uncertainty and
fear out of just day-to-day living my my
dear friend had an accident last Friday
that totaled his car I got hit side
impact to tip the car they pulled him
out through the sunroof had a head bump
didn’t know what year it was they called
our office telling because he’s
associated with us and the office staff
grabbed a custom care and a magnetic
converter and they were out the door
before we got off the phone with they
got off the phone with the police they
treated him in the immune in an
emergency room in between x-rays he’s 85
years old he has no pain no bruising and
they had the head bump the concussion
it’s already better it’s done he’s back
to normal
this is mitosis is Tuesday Wednesday
whatever day this is it’s less than a
week he should be a mess but it takes
the fear out of it because you have I
could fix that I have a way of I have a
way around that so yeah yeah I want to
thank you for being generous with your
time today for sharing all that you do
with frequency specific microcurrent for
your training classes for being at all
these events and really sharing I know
you spoke at our forum for Integrative
Medicine just a couple months ago in
Seattle and it was fantastic to have you
it was great this is a great tool and
definitely encourage people to explore
it and thank you for everything that
you’ve done you’ve made such a big
difference in so many people’s lives and
bringing this technology to the world
and so I honor you and thank you for
that well thank you so much it’s been an
honor to be able to participate and to
assist in anybody’s healing or
improvement in their life that is that
is an honor to and thanks so much you’ve
been wonderful
thanks dr. McMakin be well have a good
day to learn more about today’s guests
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