Episode One-Hundred-Nine.mp4: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix
Episode One-Hundred-Nine.mp4: this mp4 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.
Kevin:
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Kim Pittis:
Hi everybody. It feels so strange to be on here by myself, but not for long. I'm going to have a special guest joining us today. Welcome, Like I said, it seems so strange to not have Carol here with me, but here's another episode of our amazing podcast where we talk about all things FSM and other things. Quite a few of you guys emailed me a couple of questions. So because it's just you and I for a little while, I'm going to stagger some guests and stagger some topics that we can discuss. I'm just waiting for my co-host today to join us, and I will let him in as soon as he is here, but until then, I'll just lay things out how things are going to go for the next little while. So, today we're supposed to be having my surprise guest on. Next week we're also going to be having a guest on, so that will be the 25th. My hope is to have Tommy Powers on who is a strength coach that I've worked with for years, and we're going to talk about some different athletic injuries and not just for professional athletes, but for the general population and some different treatment strategies to go with healing. And then the following week, we're going to be having Dr. David Musnick on. So you don't want to miss that 1st November first. And we're going to be exploring quite a few functional medicine topics. So my guest is here, I'm going to promote him to panelist. And I will introduce him as soon as he joins the group here as a panelist. So you'll see it's Dr. Charlie Weingroff.
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
I'm promoted. I got a promotion.
Kim Pittis:
You got to promoted to panelists. Thank you so much for joining us. Look at that beautiful palm tree in the background.
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
There's more than one back there.
Kim Pittis:
One is like illuminated behind your head. Thank you for joining. I'm super excited. So everybody that's here live, same rules apply. You can ask your questions in the chat and the Q&A. I'm going to let Charlie. I'll let you introduce yourself. You and I have known each other for quite a few years now. We've cross roads treating some athletes in the past. I would like to introduce you as a facilitator because that's how I really see your role. You're like the guy that knows the people, that creates the teams to help the people.
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
Okay, I'm cool with that. I think if I may elaborate, I think there's a lot of people that know that my formal training is as a physical therapist, except a lot of people think I'm only a strength and conditioning coach. They don't even know that I'm a physical therapist and vice versa. Some people don't know that probably for the bulk of my adult working life, my role has primarily been fitness, strength and conditioning, whether it's at the professional sports level or elite level, which is most of my working career. And I think that that is not to pump my own tires, but it allows it. I don't really have much of an explanation as to why I think the way I do, but probably being in professional sports as a physical therapist, but my role as a strength and conditioning coach, you start to realize, especially at the highest level in basketball, maybe not so much other sports. You're really trying to just keep players together, and you're trying to allow them to be who they are as often as possible, rather than help them jump higher. Now, that would be very different if it was like a high school kid. And as the years have gone on. I guess that would have been the first big link. But then and again, it's weird. It's like, how does Taylor Swift know how to write a song like she just does? As you start to learn about what other people do at a surface level, you're like, oh, wait a minute, that's like this.
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
So, when you say facilitator and building a team, it's basically impossible for one person to cover medical fitness, sleep, nutrition, psychology, and load management. And I always say you can pick whatever words if you want another seven words or if you don't like mine, I have definitions to those, and I pick those words because usually those are primary labels for what people do, except everybody does everything. And if everybody knows a little bit about what everybody does and you have a big system, the system can only be held accountable by knowledge of everything. So, don't know nearly as much as somebody who only handles nutrition. But I know enough to say if what they're saying is garbage or not. And if we set things up in a particular way, everybody is in charge at some point. And really in my career where we were able to put that model together was in in Canada basketball, where we are pretty much known. I'm not Canadian, but you and I both will have a Canadian accent at some point. The recognized as the second-best basketball country in the world. And I think part of how we were able to link not only what we do from this human performance side, but also have coaches and even front office that were intimately linked into all of these different things. And obviously my relationship with Canada basketball, even though we did not meet through Canada basketball, having surrogate work permit in Toronto, at that point I never heard of FSM.
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
And most people in America have no idea what it is. They'll confuse it with a different amalgamation of the same letters, and it's obviously has nothing to do with the functional movement screen. Even though you could use Frequency Specific Microcurrent to do something with the data that you generate from the functional movement screen. And I think the first player that we worked with was very high-level tennis player who was from Toronto, and that's I'm like, I have to learn this, like this. But I had already seen it, and I was really nothing more than a short-order cook. Meaning you just take the CustomCare and "Hey, Charlie, make sure the bumblebee goes under the Christmas tree." And of course, that's changed 100 times during my time. Like, just hit that button. Somebody else already picked the protocol. And Sam Gibbs, who introduced it. And in Canada basketball, we would have 4 or 5. And as some of the organizations that I'm affiliated with, you know, I'm like, "Dude, just have 5 or 6 on hand and just put it on acute after the game. That's all you have to do." And obviously, that's nearly disrespectful to what this device is capable of. But that kind of story, a little bit of what I do and how I think and how we came to be connected.
Kim Pittis:
That was like my favorite introduction ever. What I want to unpack with what I think makes you unique, and you started with it, that you are a doctor of physical therapy. You are a strength and conditioning coach, and you've managed to bridge the gap so well between rehab and return to play and the return to play, so many holes and gaps in it, which is why we see so many players getting re-injured when they come back. But this isn't just about professional athletes. Like, we have so many people that are on here who are in chronic pain. So what I want to do is like kind of tag team. Some different approaches where you and I had discussed, I would like to talk about sprained ankles. We're going to talk about it from a perspective that when you and I work together with a professional athlete, but I'd also like to talk about sprained ankle rehab with the general population, one of the most common injuries that we see. And then your unique approach, because you see it from a physical therapy probably starting point. But everybody's in this return to play like we all want to get back to where we were, if not better than before injury.
Kim Pittis:
We're going to we're going to tag team some approaches here. And like I said, we're going to start with sprained ankle. So, for the people that are joining us live today, if you have questions same rules apply. Throw them in the chat or the Q&A because we don't have Kevin to help us today, moderate everything. Just bear with me when I go back and forth with that. Something else I want to unpack is how my biggest pet peeve when I started working with FSM was the fact that people were just using the preprogrammed mode bank and slapping it on players and Christmas tree Bumblebee was the only thought process that they had in their head, and then it wouldn't work because it wasn't specific enough to the injury or the patient, and then it would wind up on the floor in the back of a closet. Yeah, a lot has changed, so we'll unpack some things as we go about the specificity with our devices. Do you have anything to add so far?
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
No, I would guilty as charged in those. However, I think when you're doing more than guessing and you do know what the numbers are in those preprograms. In my world, I don't think, you know, like at that short order cook level, as long as you go in and change it to positive, which is typical for a professional athlete versus general population. And that's actually very rare that any concept is that dramatically different. That's not the worst thing in the world to do and obviously, we chose sprained ankle as a very prominent player that I work with and that I have brought you in the past to work with. Sprained his ankle on Sunday and A1 within four hours. We have a firm belief that if anybody, if you have an FSM on you and a lot of the players that I work with privately, they all have one in their bag that they travel with and my knee is hurting or insert whatever and then just do what is it, MLTB acute. And when I plug it in I'll change it to positive. They know how to set it up, or they can just grab some stim pads from the athletic trainer. And that's in the world. But at least we know that we're doing We're not just randomly picking something.
Kim Pittis:
Right. And for the lay people that are listening, we have a preprogramed protocol MLTB, acute; muscle, ligament, tendon, Bursa acute. It's a wonderful starting point. I will always still put that on my CustomCare for lay people, Sports people, anybody. So anybody gets injured, we want something on them, especially if it's acute, especially within that four-hour window. It doesn't have to be completely dialed in. And yes, we want to be as specific as possible, but some Microcurrent is better than no Microcurrent. So, on a program that's preprogrammed like that MLTB, like maybe it's not really the muscle, maybe 100% of it is the ligament, and maybe just a little bit of it is the Bursa. So, the worst case scenario is you're just wasting a little bit of time because it's sending frequencies to areas that may not be affected, but you're not going to do any harm. So, I think it's a good starting point regardless if you're completely dialed in, then after when you see the patient, you get imaging and we see, okay, maybe it's just the ligament, then we can make something more specific. But yeah, something is better than nothing.
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
Yeah So I think when people get wind of some of the dramatic results, they're like, "Yo, can you get me one?" Whether it's a clinician or an end user, like an athlete or a patient. And the answer is yes but I program it and I'll put what I think is useful on there, whatever the max is. And sometimes they're like, oh, everybody gets scared of concussion. And that's a good example of if you actually know, because I would suggest that's a not the best word to describe what that protocol is capable of creating for an individual, which is not only for a concussion. That's not a simple conversation, particularly with an NFL or an NHL athlete, where the word concussion is right up there with some of the most evil words in the English language. So, as long as what the numbers are trying to do, having this thing on, on the ride home from across the country is really not this bad. The worst thing that happens is nothing. And we should not discount. See, I think you've heard me say this before. There's no such thing as a placebo. We're just measuring the wrong thing because we don't ever measure serotonin, dopamine, or oxytocin. So, now if something is literally touching you, and even though it's subsensory, there is a mechanical thing happening between the pads inside your body. We have every reason to believe that some of those feel-good neurotransmitters or hormones. And so it may not have anything to do with why we think we're applying this device, but what's the harm? And that's usually if nothing happens and if we insist, you can have it on with the game ready, you can have it on with the Normatec There's no negative interaction, at least in my experience or from my knowledge of physics.
Speaker2:
Absolutely. Yeah. One of the comments that just came in, said any part of the body or emotions can be concussed. And that's our Harry Van Gelder model. So the word concussion, the way we use it with Harry Van Gelder, the osteopath that came up with so many of the frequencies that we use. We use the concussion and I put it in bunny ears because that's what he called it. But to Charlie's point, in professional sports, the word concussion is the C-word, right? It's worse than many other diseases that start with C because and I've seen it right before my eyes where I'd program something and before I could even, and this was years ago, before I could even say this is called concussion, but you don't have a concussion. It was complete freak-out. "I don't have a concussion. I had a concussion a couple of years ago." But because they get flagged,. It's a whole traumatic event just in itself. I've learned my lesson and I've gone in and I've changed the word concussion to different words. Neuro comm, post-game cooldown, whatever you want it to use. Just because the same thing goes for a couple of protocols that I would have torn shoulder. I had a patient that was like, could you change the phrase? So it says Mending Shoulder. I'm like, oh yeah, exactly. Because just like you're talking about the placebo effect, there's also the nocebo effect. So you could change all the torn and broken and can get all those negative disease ridden words to something positive, especially with an athlete where those semantics are the game changers.
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
Yeah. And everybody's different. Sometimes people do connect with those words. So in the preset protocols deg joint, for degenerative joint, which is incredible, at least again in my experience, an incredibly powerful tool when applied to a significantly degenerative joint. It's theirs. So now this negative terminology actually becomes very positive because this is for me. And again, I have no until we actually measure everything, we can say what we think we're doing. We can certainly measure what we think happened objectively. But if FSM doesn't do anything but they feel better, then something happened. But until we know all of this, to me it's not important to champion something other than this is useful. It doesn't hurt. And this is the protocol that we're going to use, even if it's a prefabbed one.
Kim Pittis:
For sure. Let me go back here for a second. What was your first interaction with FSM? Were you skeptical? Do you remember what it was or was it?
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
No, I don't think I was skeptical. I do think for the sake of the listeners, pro sports environments aren't always the two things. Number one, the way both men and women typically communicate is not typical of outside of that closed environment in terms of what words people use. And it's easy to poke at something. Most everybody is their time to be the hunter. So, the first time I probably would just for lack of a better term, maybe be funny. What is it like? Come on, what are you like? You're telling me blah, blah, blah, but no! Number one, if something comes from Sam Gibbs, I take it seriously. And very quickly, probably within the first year of using. Because here's the reality. I was the director of performance and the head strength and conditioning coach for men's Canada basketball. However, especially if we brought the kids up from the staff, I sometimes would never do anything medical like I was in charge of our data accumulation and fitness. So let's say because we would typically have a suite for our rehab and rehab room. So I would be the FSM guy because I'm not doing the manual therapy, not because I'm not capable, it's just not what my role was. So, when we would have the big one, what we always call it the big FSM or the little FSM, and then Sam would say, change the numbers from across the room, and I'm just changing the numbers, not really knowing, but I'm doing some kind of therapy.
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
I'll say his name, Joel Anthony played in the NBA forever and has a ring with the Miami Heat. He's from Montreal and he had, I think it was posterior tibial symptoms. I don't remember exactly what the pathology was. The inside of his ankle hurt and number aau. Number Aau. Number Aau. Number… Like he's gone. And then I'm pushing like it's absolute hard as I can. And I'm like, all right, I'm in. I'm in. And I think it took a couple of years before the course. I think you were at the first course, but Carol taught it. Because if I'm going to be the FSM guy because Sam had all of these devices from his own practice in Toronto. I need to, you know, I'm pretty sure Canada basketball paid for me to go for the first course just to like, you have to start from the beginning and just baby kindergarten version. So I might scoff because again, if something works, I think what I would be very profound, not profound. That's a bad word. You can say I'm profound.
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
I'm not allowed to say I'm profound. I'd be very pronounced in my communication. That absolutely does not do what you say it's doing That I'll say, because the rules of biology and physics don't change, and that person usually will get very upset because they believe that there's results. They're biased. I forget the name of it. And I apologize if anybody champions this method, but I'm the guest here. I'm talking It's not a manual therapy, but you actually don't touch the person. It looks like you're not putting your hands on the person. If you're not putting the hand your hands on the person, then you can wipe out oxytocin. That's not happening. The only way that somebody gets better from this non-manual therapy where you're moving your hands around somebody is either serotonin or dopamine because the person believes that you're doing something to help them. So, you're basically being nice to the person and people typically like being nice to the person. And so I'm like I would look at it, I'd be like, what are you doing? That doesn't really because they would probably give some other explanation other than serotonin or dopamine. And those impacts. There cannot be an active pathology. There cannot be an active inflammation because serotonin and dopamine do not touch those things.
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
So that person is probably also not communicating 100% of their results. They're only going to tell you when somebody had the right condition, where really they were just like stressed out, loaded out, and they just needed to lay down and relax and have somebody be nice to them, because that's what that is. That's all it is. And you're really doing good things for that person. Except you need to tell me the other eight people where it didn't do anything. And of those eight people, you need to tell me the six that said, no, I feel a little bit better because they don't want to be mean to you because of your niceness was not nearly as useful to them as they would have hoped. So am I really being skeptical? I'm just going by the laws of biology and physics. If you don't go by the laws of biology or physics, you're not a bad person. You certainly have high levels of altruism. You're not doing what you say you're doing. So that's where FSM may fit into that category. I typically describe that it's tough to get in the door because the information like been very simple as we've talked many times before. Why these numbers? I happen to believe, and this is not joking. The most plausible explanation is an alien came and told us these numbers because, you know, if anything other than I don't know is wrong.
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
There's no rationale of physics or biology that would say 142 does this, like we don't even know what it is. What we do know on the back end is that there is very tangible results. Obviously, I would love to see the literature replicated multiple times of the proliferation of mitochondria, which clearly makes sense as to why something worked. So, it's hard to get in the door. But once you're in the door, my standard, and I'm sure the people that are on this call would have a similar standard if they're users and champions of FSM is there's no danger as long as you go by the rules here and don't put it over a pregnant womb or something, and maybe you're even supposed to do that. I don't get into the non-musculoskeletal stuff.
Kim Pittis:
Yeah.
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
There shouldn't be any harm. Let's see what happens because this is what I think it's happening based on what I have been told. And if I don't buy it then I don't buy it. Like but in this case, I saw some things that really made me feel like. This is it. And additionally, you can still do whatever manual therapy that you would typically do and just see if anything is different/more desirable, how quickly you may get the result.
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
So if I'm going to dig my thumb in this location, I have an idea of how quickly or what type of result I'm looking for. Do I get a better version of that if I dig my thumb in that location with an FSM protocol that fits what I am seeing as to why I wanted to stick my thumb in that area in the first place. So, that's a big, long answer. But I probably have a lower threshold of entry point because I want to win. There's nothing more important than winning. I have high respect for others. I just can't get into that. I get it because they're standard. We can't answer and I'm not being silly. Like I have no idea. Like what's the company line like? It was in the it was in this old haunted house and they lifted the curtain and all these numbers were there. You're not going to get a lot of people. You're not going to get like, right. Big city orthopedic surgeons are not going to champion this, if that's what we're going to go with. If that's the best you got, then great. But I think there's got to be better to than that.
Kim Pittis:
For sure. It is like reverse engineering, right? Yeah, that was my biggest. That was my first question at my first in-person Core that I went to. Why is 396 nerve? And Dr. McMakin, we started with the list that came from and it was the story. And once you start seeing results, I got less hung up with why 396 is nerve and just it seems to be resonating with nerve because the pain goes down almost immediately when I run that. And it doesn't work with fashion and doesn't work with liver and it doesn't work with kidney. So I'm going with it.
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
Yeah.
Kim Pittis:
The other thing I want to unpack with what you were saying, and I think those of us who work with athletes, the pressure to get somebody better is much greater. I'm not saying don't feel pressure when somebody who works at Safeway and has carpal tunnel comes in to see me, I feel the same pressure to get them better and get them out of pain. But the part that I want to unpack a little bit that you talked about is that niceness factor. When somebody comes in and they're all hopped up and then you're just nice to them and you're letting them lie down for a little while and you're showing concern for them, and they're feeling better just in that environment. I never got that vibe a lot with the professional hockey players that I was working with in Calgary. It was high pressure come in, they don't care if I'm nice to them, they don't care if I know anything about hockey.
Kim Pittis:
They have sore knee, shoulder and they have to play tomorrow so they don't care what I'm doing in that room, how I'm talking to them, what kind of magic wand I'm waving. There's a chance that they're going to be able to play tomorrow. They're going to take it. And I think that safety factor that you were talking about with FSM is also huge. Because as a clinician that's working with athletes, you have that risk and reward going all the time. I want to do this, but are they going to feel bad tomorrow? What kind of? And let's face it, the majority of us who work with FSM, this is not the sole modality in our tool bank. We are using it in conjunction with acupuncture, manual therapy, muscle activation techniques, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I think for me, that's as a manual therapist starting with FSM, that was all the proof I needed. When I bring his name up all the time. Dr. Mark Lindsay was working on somebody, and I was like, what is that? So yeah, I was a skeptic. I was a good manual therapist. I didn't believe in machines, but I know when he hit a certain frequency and my hands just sunk into somebody's back, that and he didn't feel pain like you said. Number. You're like, what? And for me, that was my selling that I was sold there. So.
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
And I just think I would say as if I represent myself, I don't disrespect if that's not enough for somebody because your report of your hand sinking or my report of Joel Anthony going like this is still entirely subjective and impossible to objectify. So, if you're that person, this isn't for you. That's totally cool. I think regardless of the method, people that really feel great about something, they get mad if somebody doesn't like what they do, who cares? Like, if you ever had somebody on here and that was totally against FSM, the listeners would get mad instead of actually either turning it off or actually listening to to what they say. I was not terribly positive just now by saying, we need to be better than saying these numbers were in this haunted house with dust on them. We do need to be better than that. But I am in the camp like you. Where okay, for my threshold, I don't care. I've got a PRP. You gave me a PRP protocol and I put it on right in front of the surgeon, and he didn't know what the hell I was doing. But the PR who he's like, yeah, like, I read a research paper on Microcurrent for something, and it wasn't what I was using it for, and it probably wasn't even FSM. But again, if I do it, it's a little bit more credibility in certain spaces than others. Just like you had the credibility from one of the all time greats in Mark Lindsay.
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
These people don't have respect because they're dumb. They and sometimes to to be recognized if that's something that's important to somebody. And I would say it's never important. That just happens in an organic fashion. They'll do things that are, I don't want to say, ahead of the curve, but their entry point is less restricted than someone else. And that's okay. Like it doesn't. I think my frustration would be when people insist on things that are not consistent with biology and physics. That doesn't mean the result didn't happen. But if you really believe that it happened for X, Y, Z, that's completely. There's zero defense. There's zero explanation along the laws of biology and physics. Then, you shouldn't say that. Just say it worked and just say I don't know. And I know that out of ten years of doing this, nobody has gotten imminently worse. So, just say it's okay. It's okay to say, I have no freaking idea, but I know it's safe and I objectively measured Don't tell me your hands sunk. Tell me their back pain went down. Tell me they could touch their toes. Tell me they squatted four wheels. Those are real things. Your hands sinking into somebody I would not put personally. I would not put that high on the list. Maybe if your hands sunk into my back, then I can say it. But I don't think the therapist can say it. And that's maybe all my opinion.
Speaker2:
No, that's a great point. And one of the things when I started teaching the sports course or however we're calling it the PMR course now, is you have to measure range of motion because smush yeah, that's a cool factor. But you can't chart smush. You can't go back and tell our referring physician it felt smushy after that. I don't care who you are. So charting range of motion is objectively the measure that we can measure.
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
Yeah. Completely biased. I don't think you have ever heard me use any terminology that commented on what I felt. It is, does that knee move better than I thought it was going to if we didn't do it? That I can measure or the patient or athlete's subjective report. For instance, if we track back into the ankle.
Kim Pittis:
Yeah, let's do that.
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
Does the ankle because NFL athletes typically going to get an MRI sometimes the same day if not early the next morning. So, you have an idea of what you typically see for that type of inflammatory response and lesions and structural changes. If magic is on board and all you did was FSM and how quickly you can load the joint and how aggressive you can safely be, then that's really what we're looking for, because you could substitute anything. If you're the one that wants it to work, you're not allowed to tell me about your hands. That's just not how this works. You're not a bad person. You're not a scientist. And that's okay. You don't have to be a scientist. You're still helping people. You're not a bad person. You're going to get laughed out. And then that retards the growth and the exposure of FSM by being silly. Don't be silly. If you really feel this is a great thing like I do. I'm going to say what I'm going to say, and we're going to get more people in the door. I don't care if people buy it or not. My point is, this is helping people. We want to help people. Don't tell me about what you think happened and emotions stop. There's no emotion in my trap, okay? There's collagen, there's elastin, there's mitochondria. You know, you just stop. This is not okay. Like..shushh.
Kim Pittis:
Okay. You've got a lot of people and maybe part of me too, who would beg to differ using the emotional protocols and how it can help range of motion. And I've only did it because I was the biggest skeptic. Because I was like that. Come on emotions My shoulders not sad.
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
But what if I change the name of emotion? Like you change the name of concussion and I called it something else, would you still think it's emotion?
Kim Pittis:
That's a great question. I don't know. And that's the beautiful thing about FSM. You create a hypothesis, you try it, it works. It doesn't work. You move on, new numbers. Right? There's a lot of variety. So, I do like I said.
Kim Pittis:
I want to track back to I want to track back to ankles for a second. So when we're talking about the patient that we worked with, the player, that was a high ankle sprain. So we're going to unpack this again. Laypeople, practitioners. We typically see two types of ankle sprains. We have your normal low ankle sprain or your regular inversion sprain. You have your high ankle sprain. So what's the difference. With FSM, your target tissues actually change a little bit more. So with a high ankle sprain, we're looking at trauma to that interosseous membrane. And I have slides here. I did a podcast a little while ago on it. I can put some slides together maybe just to show you the graphic of it. But the interosseous membrane is that connective tissue. So instead of using straightup ligament which is 100 for a high ankle sprain, it's important to customize a protocol that has a lot of that interosseous membrane. So 77/142 fascia and periosteum as the attachments in between the Tib and the Fib need some extra help?
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
Charlie, I'm going to throw it back to you about this person's high ankle sprain and any of the other tissues that were involved with it.
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
Yeah, high ankle sprain was from a few years ago. That's not what we're dealing with right now. So, we're using more of torn vessels. We're using ligaments. Obviously, fascia is always a part of it. And so the thought process is if I track back, this is less about the ankle and then I'll bring it back, I promise very quickly and I won't talk about emotion in his ankle. The everything is always like trying to take three circles and put them together, and that helps you guide any level of treatment. What does the individual say? What does the individual do? And then what's the truth? Because the truth may not always be relevant. So hey how does your ankle and it's going to be more granular than this. What is your ankle feel? How do you perform? So in this case very rudimentary strength tests. What does it look like? Is it swollen? All this and then MRI because the MRI may be completely different and we just keep it in our pocket. So, when we put those three together, there's certain structures that always have to be part of this. Fascia would be one. In this case, periosteum is not. But if I ran one of the prefabbed protocols, we cover it. But you just don't know then which one to run when you have the the big machine, which one do you focus on and obviously not everybody even has the big machine. But that's how you would build out this bespoke program.
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
Of the ones that you said, we wouldn't use periosteum, at least in my mind. I'm not seeing that on the MRI. I'm not seeing that in my brain in terms of keeping all this information together. Now, he also described knee pain.
Kim Pittis:
Right.
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
So obviously fascia is one form of one form of connection, but MRI of the knee showed nothing. It wasn't hot at all. So, that's where what he said wasn't consistent with the truth. Right? And obviously, when there's an acute injury, you feel things, etc. It doesn't have to always be objective when it's them that are saying it. We would be very traditional. We did do tendon as well on B the side, even though ligament would be the primary target anytime because we looked at the MRI and be like okay, these are the structures. So, let's attack those structures and just use whatever the time-sensitive ones for torn and broken and then, just build that out. And then that fits into these legendary stories of getting rehab for like 14 or 16 hours. That isn't really what's happening to a degree. In this case, I'm not there. One of our team members is handling it and obviously doing many other things that you mentioned. Our number one guy on the ground handles the fitness, which is absolutely crucial to discuss. But also, he's in school for Asian medicine. So his knowledge of acupuncture and then with having a more Western influence, there's more than just acupuncture and using needles and again, what's really happening when you put needles in these areas, not only are we using needles and I don't know that anything is contraindicated, we just never do it.
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
Needles with FSM because metal and electricity, we don't do that. Even though I tend to think it would probably be okay. We're not going to find out in professional athlete. So when we're not using the FSM, we're going to needle. But we're also going to needle other areas and that's where FSM can come in for another completely different reason. If the fluid in the body is water, blood, and lymph, whatever is in the ankle, that makes it swollen, there are all sorts of estuaries that come into these main routes. And this is really more into osteopathy, where osteopathy is a very different entry point. And that's why it's different than other things. But the medial arch, the medial gastroc, posterior knee, lateral thigh. So, that's the femoral vein. Those are the big roots. So, if we're going to do therapy or FSM to soften the tissue, all I care about is okay that's the reason I'm doing it get the swelling go down faster. And that you can use very traditional American needling to just beat up the tissue and create this instant relaxation that we don't expect to last. But those are the highways. So, if this is the vein and the tissue is reacting because of the pain in the foot and a very normal reaction of spasm, if it's squeezing it and then, I relax the tissue, there's less traffic.
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
I go from one lane to five lanes and then you must move the ankle, provided it's not fractured. That's another link. So, now, if FSM can serve the purpose of decreasing resting tension in those specific areas, then I have a completely different reason to use this device. Then, why I would put it on a blown up ankle where torn blood vessels have caused all this? Because it has to go somewhere. The fluid doesn't just disappear. It goes through those routes. Very interestingly, a lot of people would say that their knee pain gets better when they foam roll their lateral thigh, and they would say it's from their IT band. That would be completely inconsistent with physics and biology, but it is highly consistent with releasing tension around the femoral vein and obviously, osteopathy, which is not traditionally utilized in American medicine. That's my Canadian heritage So now the fluid can move and the congestion in the knee was better. You're right. You can't do anything to the IT band. You're better off foam-rolling a chain link fence. But so we use that. And then whether you're using your hands, using needles, using FSM, they're all cousins because we have a focus on what we're trying to do to get the swelling out of the ankle as quickly as possible, because I know we can load safer and not have pain, which is all this garbage up, garbage down.
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
Because if I load the ankle being consistent with how I want connective tissue to heal, but there's pain. There's a mitigated response through the sympathetic nervous system.
Kim Pittis:
Right.
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
Which can be objectively measured. So whatever we're doing there, we're also doing at the knee just because it was part of what he said. But we minimize that because there's nothing there. And then once those highways are relaxed, because you're going to do this over and over again, I call it manual therapy, but I know other people will call different, articular pumping is now how do you facilitate the gradients to get the fluid to move even quicker. And I think when you consult and living in America again, articular pumping is not something that people know exists and they'll continue to not know because it's just not available for other weird reasons. But so now we're pushing the fluid and that's really our local response. And that'll go all the way up into the abdomen. Because as the femoral vein goes through the pelvic floor, it gets to here. And then it gets recycled and cleaned. It's like this body's internal dialysis. So, that's what we're doing And obviously, you can see if I didn't know what FSM was. Somebody that champions FSM should get excited because hey, that does the same thing.
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
You could do it together to see if there's a summation or an amplified effect, and that should get people very excited. You can do pumping, you can do therapy. We don't do needles with the electricity. Obviously, there's a rule of physics there that may not be very favorable. And then, we have another leg. We have a trunk. We have two arms And we will do whatever we possibly can do to either maintain or enhance a natural, ethical, safe hormonal response. Because everything gets better with better hormones. We're going to do the same for an immune response because everything gets better with an immune response. And clearly, there's a deeper conversation. When I say hormone and immune, there's something in FSM land that can support this. All you have to do is measure. And at the end of the day, if we're trying to get one of the best players in the NFL, back as quickly as possible, no problem saying I'm not worried about it. We're just going to say it's safe, okay. But then, in this case, we're going to maintain as much cardiovascular conditioning because I need oxygen there. So, we're going to do something to maintain not only high levels of the heart and lungs functioning. We are not going to be able to do a lot peripherally because the type of mitochondrial proliferation or enhancement is not authorized when there's pain. So, you can't do it. You just better hope that you did it beforehand, because the more mitochondria that are in the area, the quicker the healing process will go because the oxygen is fueling this ATP from these little micro factories in the tissue.
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
And we said earlier that one of the more profound studies that supports the utility of FSM is this backend fact of a 500% mitochondria. Again, I'd prefer to see more because that's what somebody else is going to say. They're like, yeah, but that's only one study. Okay, that's enough for me. But you see how all of those things that we would typically do for somebody that didn't even know existed, you could probably do something across 14 to 16 hours to support all of those processes. And so we always look at the local what can we do to have a local tissue healing. We track what really has to happen. So you might be treating other areas that don't appear to be part of the injury, because previous injury might be part of not why this happened from a mechanical level. But if I'm treating vessels, I need all the tissues that the vessels travel through. And this is how you build out your plan. Some people like to say your chain and some people say these fascial chains are prefixed. That's fine. Make it happen. We build out our own based on what we're seeing, on what they see, what they do, and the truth, because they're all players here. So.
Kim Pittis:
I'm going to stop you for a second, because there's about 429,000 things that you said that I need to unpack here,
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
I thought I go to click. It's like when people are mad about what I'm saying because.
Kim Pittis:
It's all good. It's not just you, but there's talking points that I want to go back to because I think typically when we're talking about injury, whether I get consulted from a trainer from a different team, everybody's so hyper fixated on the B channel. Is it the ligament? Is it the tendon? And you actually brought it up to, it's never just one thing. Like you said, everything is connected. And you can't just say the tendon or the ligament is torn and broken. It'd be really nice to think that every sprained ankle, every fracture could just be broken on the periosteum, broken on the bone, broken on the tendon. Schlep it together, put it on for an hour and it's going to mend. It doesn't happen like that. Biology doesn't happen like that. Pathophysiology doesn't happen like that. So, you talked a lot about the vessels. And when we break, if you look at what's in the mode bank or whenever we talk about an acute injury, 18, which is bleeding on channel A, is always there in the beginning. Right? Because the torn and broken is over here. But if something bled first and the bleeding in FSM, the hypothesis, the idea is that if we are helping with the circulation, if we're helping remove that pattern of bleeding, we're going to get the inflammation down.
Kim Pittis:
And once obviously a certain amount of inflammation is absolutely necessary for healing to occur. But so that acute injury, you'll see if you break down what's happening, you'll see trauma. The trauma probably happened first. You see the bleeding and then you see the allergy reaction. Right? Which is everyone's always caught up about number nine. Why is allergy reaction there? That's the histamine response that happens with an acute injury with inflammation. 321 is paralysis, right? So, all those numbers on the A channels are there for a reason. And so Charlie was talking about we want to increase. We want to drive the circulation from something that is swollen. So, again we're going to touch back onto that sprained ankle example. When an ankle is swollen after the trauma, we do want a certain amount of macrophage activity there. That cleanup crew that's coming to help clean up the joint. We need oxygen. We need circulation. So, again going back to FSM, I've been using the hypoxia frequency. I used it in chronic conditions. But we also want to make sure that oxygen is getting to the area. So, we use that on the A channel as well.
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
Oxygen is mandatory for any human process. However, oxygen alone is not a friend there's a reason you can't fly with an air tank even though you can in some space there. So, oxygen is everything?
Kim Pittis:
Yes. And movement, right? People always talk about or I've been a big proponent of not using RICE; rest, ice, compression, and elevation. The new acronym coming out of Canada, Australia, Sweden, METH; movement, elevation, traction, and heat. And of course, it's not so linear. We're not throwing heat packs on people, but the movement component is necessary. And you touched on that and you've been a big proponent of that too, provided there's not a fracture. We need movement to come to help with the lymphatic return, to help with just the natural processes that happens with healing. So, you really summarize a lot of things that I wanted to make sure we talked about.
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
Yeah, the movement can be part of this. Not the manual technique of pumping, but if I move and close down vessels and then open, there is a pumping impact. And also from the point that I get from here to here, there is a pro-alpha1 collagen response. And as long as we're doing it without paying, we're going to start to accelerate the remodeling of the tissue. And remember, you need the inflammation there. So, I'm glad that you said because I'm not as linear, we will still be very liberal with ICE in the first 72 hours. That's not a long time. And we'll be similarly regressive on the use of anti-inflammatories if there's not this immediate urgency and timeframe because I want the fluid there.
Kim Pittis:
Yeah.
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
I've seen situations where lunatics have suggested that they should cortisone immediately. I'm like, oh my God, no, you don't even have an MRI yet. Like, how about we wait a couple of days to do cortisone if that's the right thing to do? Which it isn't, because they just wanted the joint evacuated. So this individual could start to load and heal, absolutely lunacy because it's not going to heal, like the inflammatory response acutely is like this window is wide open for you to move even though you can't do a lot. And that's where microdosing the movement and you just do as much as you can, pain-free as often as you can.
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
And that's a significant piece. And as it relates to our main topic, if FSM some way regardless of why anybody thinks it does, if it allows you to do more of that, then you win Because if well, Charlie, you only work with athletes. False. But you know, basically, people want to say my patients don't have these grand goals to play on Sunday. They just want their pain to go away. Okay. Then, you should look the patient in the eye and be like, I am being half-assed. I am going to do a great job of helping your pain, but you do need to understand that the reason that you had this pain was because something related to how you move, and how your tissue resiliency and how your hormones, immune system, central and peripheral cardio led to this. So if we don't do any movement, we're good. Swipe the card, everything's cool, but your pain will go away. But you are not doing. You're being myopic. And I think that's okay. If the patient says, I'm good, thank you. I want to leave here as a high risk. I just want my pain gone. But that conversation never happens. So it's both. In fact, plan B is the more long-term response. Plan A has to come first, but it's not the long-term answer, right?
Kim Pittis:
No, you're absolutely right. We're almost running out of time. I always say this is the fastest hour of my entire week. But this was ridiculously fast. I could listen to you talk about things for forever. There are a couple of little questions on here before we get going.
Kim Pittis:
Leif mentioned, Charlie, if you're interested, have a look at a segment of a book called Vibrational Medicine that gives a history of Albert Abrams. We use some of his frequencies who's a medical doctor and his development of the earliest FSM. It's not a long read. I'm also interested in that, Leif. Thank you very much.
Kim Pittis:
Somebody asked a question here, experienced with knee pain, right behind the joint between the femur and the tibia, fibula. History of knee surgery 25-30 years ago with pain starting back about 20 years ago. I'm not sure that could be a thousand different things. I could probably need a little bit more information, range of motion and stuff. But the person that wrote that question, if you want to throw it in an email to me, we can unpack that next week and I can give you a little bit more if I get a little bit more information on that. Full range of motion but the patient just has pain. So again, I would probably ask about imaging. Charlie, I really want to acknowledge what you said about those three bubbles or the three circles, because that summarize so much of what we see, what the patient complains about, They're imaging. Right. Because sometimes a lot more often than not it probably doesn't always line up. Right? What they're complaining about versus what we're seeing on imaging. Conversely, sometimes they come in with all this imaging and they're like, oh my God, my back is so much worse. I'm like, okay, but anybody over the age of 35 is going to have some pretty wonky back x-rays. So don't get too caught up on that if you're functional and pain-free. So sometimes it can go the other way.
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
The interpretation of any of those factors, obviously it's very easy to misinterpret because usually the physical medicine provider, the chiro, the PT, the osteo, whatever, they're not always the one that authorized the imaging. Somebody else did it and somebody else explained it to them. So, their core values and their communication approach may not be the same. All bets are off. Again, I'm not so blessed that every single person stays in the family. But when it does be like, listen, Kim, you're going to get the MRI and then you're going to put your earplugs in. When they explain it to you, you're just going to send it to me and then, we will talk about it. Otherwise, don't get the MRI because facts don't have to be relevant. You're wearing a white top, completely irrelevant. So, that's why we have to link that to everything else. And the same goes for objective and what they do and and what they say. Because for instance, I have unrelenting back pain. Imaging shows one of the most heinous MRIs I've ever seen. And he can put his wrist to the floor.
Kim Pittis:
Right.
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
That doesn't make sense. Given a posterior herniation. So, what are we going to do? And that's. We still did do an epidural because he wasn't satisfied. But the long-term answer I'm like, yo, just let's just dance with this for a little bit. There's no way that if we didn't have imaging, I'm not sure I would even send you for imaging. He could squat to the floor if he lived in the Pacific Rim like there was. This didn't make sense. And I'm like, I don't know where you're going to be in a couple of years, but right now, this doesn't add up. So, it can be any. And then obviously people with central sensitization may describe symptoms that are completely inconsistent with how they move or imaging. And that's just one form of a psychosocial component of pain, which is a whole another, you know, factor biological.
Kim Pittis:
Yeah, Charlie, people want to learn more about you. Get in contact with you Instagram, Facebook website. Can you give us some of that information we can put in the show notes?
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
Instagram and Facebook is Charlie Weingroff and the the website is creatively charlieweingroff.com. Yeah, that's not hard to find.
Kim Pittis:
Thank you so much for coming. I know how busy you are. We so appreciate all your knowledge and enthusiasm with all things We'll talk again, I'm sure, soon. So thanks everybody for coming. Like I said, next week is a little TBD. I will be here. I'm not sure about my guests, but we'll see everybody back here. Same time, same place. See you.
Dr. Charlie Weingroff:
Thank you.
Kevin:
The Frequency Specific Microcurrent podcast has been produced by Frequency Specific Seminars for entertainment, educational, and informational purposes only. The information and opinions provided in the podcast are not medical advice. Do not create any type of doctor-patient relationship and, unless expressly stated, do not reflect the opinions of its affiliates, subsidiaries, or sponsors, or the host or any of the podcast guests or affiliated professional organizations. No person should act or refrain from acting on the basis of the content provided in any podcast, without first seeking appropriate medical advice and counseling. No information provided in any podcast should be used as a substitute for personalized medical advice, and counseling. FSS expressly disclaims any and all liability relating to any actions taken or not taken based on any contents of this podcast.
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